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Doug T.  
10/10/10

Comments:
Miguel.
So you believe in eugenics, but just can't trust who runs such a program. Since you think I'm god - I'll play god for a day and select you as the "Eugenics Czar". You do trust yourself, don't you?
As the Eugenics Czar, which genes would you want to breed out of our geneome? Sickle cell? RWAs? Low intelligence. Blonde hair and blue eyes only? Would you breed out homosexuality? Maybe you don't like people with "hooked noses".
Let's hear your hopes for our your eugenics master plan.


Miguel 
10/09/10

Comments:
"Lemme get this straight - it's OK for two constening adults to have anal intercourse in their private relationship, but a transaction with a consenting adult and a corporation is ass raping? Is a purchase of Trojans for gay lovers a preassraping assrape?"- Doug

You seem to fail to understand the meaning of the word rape...perhaps you are familiar with the term unconscionable contract. Or fraud, consider Ludlow, Bhopal, Love Canal, Enron, AIG, Magnetar, Goldman Sachs, Rockefeller, Hunt, Carnegie, Morgan, Walton, BP, Koch, etc.

"My earlier statement - that conservatives wish to legislate your behavior in the bedroom and progressives wish to legislate your behavior in the kitchen, in the bathroom, in the living room, in your garage - seems necessary to repeat." - Doug

The difference is that there appear to be compelling societal reasons as opposed to moral discomfort.

"You completely miss the point about rogue RWA groups compared to RWA actions sanctioned by governments. This is the issue. And it is what Dr. Altemeyer ignores as he goes on his witch-hunt." - Doug

The Taliban was not government sponsored, Hitler spent years in jail before taking power, the French, Soviet, and Chinese revolutions were not government sponsored. The RWA's start from the outside...follow those who raise discord, fear and anger, then take power and institute the bloodbath. RWA's NEED to be scared, angry, and led...they will follow anyone who will give them what their pathology requires. An out let for the BAD THING and a sense of superiority backed up with violence.

"Do you share Gary's belief that RWA is a genetic trait. How do you propose to reduce/eliminate RWAs? Eugenics seems like a popular "progressive" idea."

Could be I suppose...many cognitive and emotional traits seem to have a genetic component.
I oppose eugenics because I don't trust the judgement of anyone who would accept that responsibility.
I like the concept but, as with abortion, anyone who can force you to bear a child can force you to terminate a pregnancy. These are things that shout not be legal or illegal...they should be NON LEGAL, as in no one has any right telling you what you can do. FWIW the world would be a better place with out several easily identified genetic maladies that could be eliminated from the genome in 2 generations...I STILL don't think it's a good idea.
We had a choice when my wife became pregnant, if our child had been seriously disabled we probably would have terminated the pregnancy.


Doug T.  
10/09/10

Comments:
Miguel.
Lemme get this straight - it's OK for two constening adults to have anal intercourse in their private relationship, but a transaction with a consenting adult and a corporation is ass raping? Is a purchase of Trojans for gay lovers a preassraping assrape?
My earlier statement - that conservatives wish to legislate your behavior in the bedroom and progressives wish to legislate your behavior in the kitchen, in the bathroom, in the living room, in your garage - seems necessary to repeat.
You completely miss the point about rogue RWA groups compared to RWA actions sanctioned by governments. This is the issue. And it is what Dr. Altemeyer ignores as he goes on his witch-hunt.
Do you share Gary's belief that RWA is a genetic trait. How do you propose to reduce/eliminate RWAs? Eugenics seems like a popular "progressive" idea.


Miguel 
10/09/10

Comments:
Doug...
I thought of a simpler way to say it...
Progressives fight to avoid fighting.


Miguel 
10/09/10

Comments:
Doug...
What do progressives fight for...primarily we fight against regression.
After the opposite of 'to progress' is 'to regress' or perhaps to stagnate.
We fight against economic oppression, we fight against aristocracy, we fight the robber barons and their pet politicians on the left and right sides of the aisle (which should not be confused with the right and left economically or politically), we fight foremost against the anti intellectual would be theocrats and economic neo-aristocracy.

In short we fight the forces of predation and oppression.

============================
"The difference is that we as a country can withstand these actions when committed by small bands of disparate groups. These actions carried out by government orders through it's agents is a wholly different matter." - Doug

Tell that to the government of Afghanistan prior to the Taliban, the Wiemar Republic, the residents of the killing fields, the dead in Rwanda, the citizens of the Balkans, the kids in Iraq dieing in sectarian violence. Regardless of the notional economic model these tragedies were the result of the predation of high RWA followers and their leaders.
============================

"We realize that the true thoughts of a liberal cannot be known. You will hide and call names just as liberals always have, while your ideas are more devious than any RWA. In general, liberals are deviants with a god-complex. Liberals think you have the "right" answers and any diversity of thought must be suppressed." - Doug

HA...
Who's burning Korans, Who bans books, Who's suppressing knowledge of contraception, Who's writing Thomas Jefferson out of schools, Has FOX yet disclosed it's ties to the people funding the very things it purports to despise. Are the neo-aristocrat capitalists disclosing their donations to political campaigns? You talk about deviousness...compare the platform of the TEA party to the beliefs and EXPRESSED INTENT of their favorites. If you want small government vote Libertarian.

We are easy to figure out...we just want the corps to quit ass raping us, and we want our nation back from the Dark Ages being imposed by the anti-science, anti-intellectual god squad. We don't want to be burned alive for following another religion, or beaten to death for our sexual practices between consenting adults.
Even those of faith among the Liberals recognize the danger of attempting to legislate morality.
We understand we CAN'T know god's will, and that it is the height of hubris to claim to understand it.
Just because our cognition is above your ability to comprehend in your simple world view does not mean that it's obfuscated or devious. Many of us have examined conservative positions and can argue them better and more rationally than yourselves, because we have been taught critical thinking...We have been taught to question our beliefs, we have been taught to examine others and, where there is value, to incorporate them. We have been taught to NOT discard something we don't initially agree with. This makes our world view too complicated for those who refuse to, or are otherwise incapable of understanding to comprehend. This does not mean that we are hiding something.


Doug T.  
10/09/10

Comments:
Gary.
And for our clarification: What are you fighting for? Describe the political, social and economic principles which you fight for?
Which economic system is more "capilatistic": the current US or Nazi Germany?
Now that you and the most reverend Dr. Altemeyer have determined a bias towards whomever you call RWA - What is your solution? You seem to believe this is an inherited trait, does your "superior race" wish to breed this gene through selective sterilization or just march these deviants into a gas chamber? Is it your goal to kidnap the children of RWAs and send them to "re-education" camps? I want to hear your ideas.
We realize that the true thoughts of a liberal cannot be known. You will hide and call names just as liberals always have, while your ideas are more devious than any RWA. In general, liberals are deviants with a god-complex. Liberals think you have the "right" answers and any diversity of thought must be suppressed.
I know that this post won't be answered by a liberal, but prove me wrong. Prove that what you fight for is just. Prove that your methods of improving humanity's condition is without bias.


Gary Williams Email
10/09/10

Comments:
In a remarkable confluence of historical narratives, I just found a video by a religious-right org. known as the AFA (American Family Association) who give as their reason d'etre the same one heard from the religious right since 9/11, back throughout the Cold War, even making their stand during the Spanish Civil War, (a war which IMO, was the last "honest" conflict ) From WW2 on, the rhetoric had become so pervasive that even most people from relatively free democracies came to accept war-time propaganda as Cold War  fact.

Anyhow....from a link* re: the 2 sides: "Global public opinion rallied around one of two factions, seeing the war as either a struggle of democracy against fascism (leftists) or, conversely, of Christian civilization against Communism (right-wing)."

What's interesting about the video is the way the AFA projects their own style of denying authoritarian tendencies among themselves onto Hitler, citing his suppression of homosexuality as his way too of denying who he was.
Then they take it another step (leap!) by asserting that he quietly surrounded himself with the masculine homosexuals - of whom they claim he was himself - but outwardly killed all the un-closeted effeminate gays he could thus furthering an image many Catholic priests used and evangelical pastors still do project publicly and to their flock. Heh! And this way, the AFA still gets to persecute gays too. They claim that the entire Holocaust was itself the product of the homosexual mind!!(Really, they do! It's on my HDD now so I cant link to it, but its called "Hitler & Nazis Were Gay - American Family Association.wmv" )

Repeatedly now I've actuallybeen startled by the strangeness of hearing someone from the right describing the left in terms that are remarkably, even brilliantly accurate had they instead been describing themselves. My first thought was that maybe they were simply hurling the left's descriptions of themselves back. But the problem here is that most liberals simply haven't thought about it enough to have made such a (psychologically) accurate description for them to throw back.

Awhile back I read an essay by Dave Niewert, "Rush, Newspeak, and Fascism: An Exegesis" (Rush is NOT a fascist, btw). He too noted the frequency of the phenomenon, and how Rush's used "fascism" in a way that also "stood it on it's head".  It's also how "Newspeak" is used and what inspired that particular title.
"This is a classic case of Newspeak -- diminishing the range of thought (it's telling that Limbaugh originally filed this under "Making the Complex Understandable") by nullifying the meaning of words."
(Note once again how the issue of complexity guides the perceptions of RWAs. )

Dr. Bob's assessment of the evolving threat posed by the encroachment of the religious right happens to match Niewert's very well: "Over the past two decades, the most important meeting ground for the broad range of rightist beliefs has been in the field of fundamentalist Christianity. [..] When mainstream conservatives, religious ideologues and far-right extremists coalesce, it has consequences. The former has real-world power; the latter have agendas. To the extent that connections are made, the more likely those agendas are to actually be enacted. It becomes especially problematic as extremist elements exert an increasing influence on the broader fundamentalist sector, because this means their influence is extending into mainstream conservatism"

Niewert; "By carefully observing the machinations of the current spate of Newspeak emanating from transmitters like Limbaugh, it's possible to get a clear view of the movement's underlying agenda. This is possible when the meaning of Limbaugh's obfuscations are placed in their psychological context, because they constitute a fairly clear case of projection. Indeed, one of the lessons I've gleaned from carefully observing the behavior of the American right over the years is that the best indicator of its agenda can be found in the very things of which it accuses the left.
"One of the first to observe this propensity on the right was Richard Hofstadter, whose 1964 work The Paranoid Style in American Politics remains an important contribution to the field of analyzing right-wing politics"

But it seems to me to be even more than simple projection. They project what they deny in themselves rather than merely assuming that others see things the way they do and so must be thinking and behaving for similar reasons. But their reversal of motives, of common word meanings, and even of  accepted facts (Nazism as left-wing?) seems different. That, plus their seeming inability or reluctance to do original thinking.

 

So instead we see ONLY a constant reiteration of other people's ideologies as their own, of values belonging to existing institutions, even using other people's ideas for their own sense of existence! Isn't that the most important and fundemental question a person can have? One that defines conscious awareness itself...and in turn led mankind to be able to take nature itself apart, then reassemble it in all the different ways that now sees our physically weak species be able to survive.

 

No, instead RWAs simply accept substitute ideas from people who themselves got them from bad interpretations of old texts.  Despite being able to read for themselves the words of this ultimate final authority figure, they still knowingly allow local people to reinvent the WORD, somehow dismissing the fact as a neccesary consequence of their own need to conform to what other RWAs are doing, or what SDOs are saying!

 

No, something is really, really wrong here. Indeed, it's as though they have only their physical substance or appearance that they can truly call their own. And so, to be a whole person, they can only, and so must, reflect the intellectual part of a personality. That leaves the with no other choice but to follow orders, have faith in religious dogma, obey codified laws in place of a social "code" that reflects their own, personal satisfaction with the social and existential world they're in. How else to account for people who will go killing and even dying in wars that are clearly just "politics by other means"?  Wars in which the goal they know only from cheap banners and "patriotic"-sounding slogans?

 

No. These aren't the actions of whole, functional human beings. Either somethings amiss in comparison to our widely egalitarian, highly socialised neolithic ancestors, or they constitute a species variant, this in the true, biological sense of the word.

Perhaps they came into prominence after a tribe or group had adopted the sedentary, very reliant-on-others lifestyle that came alongside agriculture. Maybe the excess food that had originally seemed so promising for our future, was instead turned into the means by which a ruthless few could threaten the many with starvation? All that needed to happen was for those few to see how they could take advantage of all those fairly numerous others who failed to realise that the natural desire we all once had for associating with those who had the best techniques for finding food during our hunter-gatherer past was also an impulse whose utility no longer applied as it had always done. 

 

From this perspective, it's also clear which sort of person were most likely to fail to consider this or any other complex issue. It would have been the reactionary, emotionally driven sort who we today call conservatives. Their impulses told them to follow those with food (wealth) and so those who had somehow amassed a lot were then able to pose as real, "natural" providers with good hunting tips to impart to those closest to them. In game-theory, we would call these people "cheaters", but to those with unsophistiucared detection skills, that was enough to put them toward working for them, forever dangling enough wealth to keep their eye off of their own cheating ways. And thus began the class/caste trend that continues up to this very day.

 

http://www.alba-valb.org/history

**http://cursor.org/stories/fascismi.php


Gary Williams Email
10/08/10

Comments:
Perhaps the most instructive piece of history one can make themselves aware of and that will help fix who and what the underlying motives are when moving from left to right, is a close look at the Spanish Civil War. 

When I studied history at Simon Fraser U back in the 80s, our prof capped off our previous look at the left through the Bolshevik Revolution and the devastating poverty and virtual slavery of  the serfdom that precipitated Stalin's seizure of absolute power, the right via Hitler's rise to power, and then how these two strands of ideology were brought together in the SCW. 

This particular war brought together virtually every conceivable left and right wing faction, from anarchists, communists, socialists, social democrats on the left over to monarchists, fascists, theocrats (the Spanish Catholic Church was even more conservative than the Roman at that time...and that's saying something! <g>, wealthy industrialists (capitalists) and Spanish aristocrats, etc. on the right. And they all fell into alignment, with or in opposition to,  exactly who they should have if they had no other way of deciding than relative placement on the left-right scale. 

I cannot think of any more instructive piece of history than this for bringing together the disparate economic systems,  ideologies, and institutions into a situation that clarifies what is important to both ends of the political spectrum. I highly recommend it. 


Gary Williams Email
10/08/10

Comments:
I left this over at that Time article Miguel linked to in response to a militia defender who said there was no empirical evidence showing militia-types to be any different than the rest of the population. While this may be true specifically regarding the militias per se, it's a reasonably safe bet to assume there's an inordinate number of RWA-SDO personalities signing up, hence my response: 

"Dr. Robert Altemeyer has studied the strong connection between political conservatism and what social psychologists call the "RWA-SDO Authoritarian Embrace". And yes, there are lots of empirical studies validating a link between these groups and heightened anger; aggression; fear; needs for certainty; low cognitive complexity; avoidance of ambiguity - need for closure...right up to the point of seizing prematurely on bad solutions or answers to the many perceived problems they foresee, and to then be loathe to abandon the idea (or "seizing and freezing") even if the solution clearly no longer suffices; an exaggerated fear of terrorism, and depending on which day you catch them, a laundry-list of  "the biggest threat to the country!"...which is a result of poorly integrated thoughts or ideas that leave them unaware of the many contradicting "facts" they use to arrive at the ideas they use to justify their extremism. Bottom line....they're a psychological disaster zone.

For a look at Altemeyer's decades of work and the empirical evidence he has compiled on them, search on "Altemeyer & The Authoritarians".  A "must read" (made freely available too btw, a rare treat from probably the world's leading authority on "authoritarianism"). Or...failing that, use Google Scholar (to weed out the pundit-driven opinion making) and search on "authoritarianism". It's really quite shocking what is known about these people and the failure of mainstream media to mention what is actually mainstream psychology."


Radguy 
10/07/10

Comments:
Wikileaks Doug.

And lotsa smart arses!


Doug T.  
10/07/10

Comments:
Radguy.
Miguel stated that the liberal idea of elected leaders is new. See post of 5:21 pm.
You seem to have a problem with attention deficit. Did you forget to take your "Vitamin R" today?
Ok. Sure. The Greek had a word "democracy". Now you need to understand that 5-15% of the residents of Greek city-states were allowed to vote. Go ahead rant about sufferage in the US. But taken on the whole, it is plain for any educated person to understand that the genesis for the modern democratic movement is the US Constitution. What contribution has Australia enlightened the world with besides smart-assed comments?


Doug T.  
10/07/10

Comments:
Miguel.
Your rant about the Tea Party lacks something. That would be evidence. The Tea Party does not oppose or favor the social issues you point at. Please show me where the teapartypatriots.org discusses any of your points.
As for radicals. On the left we have the Black Panthers denying intimidating at polls, union thugs beating up a conservative for being black, environmentalists destroying property and murdering innocents, socialists calling for a rewrite of the Constitution, wackos calling for the murder of conservatives, bombing of federal institutions by peace activists, jailed reporters, wiretaps, assassination orders, etc. etc.
The difference is that we as a country can withstand these actions when committed by small bands of disparate groups. These actions carried out by government orders through it's agents is a wholly different matter.


Miguel 
10/07/10

Comments:
Hey Rad...
don't forget "There is no word in French for 'entrepreneur'".


Radguy 
10/07/10

Comments:
http://graphjam.com/2010/10/05/funny-graphs-european-map-according-to-americans/

Dougies map of Europe!


Radguy 
10/07/10

Comments:
"As you point out only recently have humans followed the lead of America and have elected leaders"

Any idea where the word democracy came from Doug?

Clue - it was thousands of years before Columbus arrived in the new world.

You are also very selective about the arguments you rebut.
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