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Asteroid Miner 
07/30/11

Comments:

Reference book:     "The sociopath next door : the ruthless versus the rest of us" by Martha Stout. New York : Broadway Books, 2005.


According to Martha Stout, 4% of all people are born sociopaths/sciopaths/psychopaths.   There is no cure because it is caused by a part of the brain simply being missing.   A written test, the MMPI [Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory] can identify sociopaths before they cause destruction.


Everybody should have to take the MMPI in high school.   Psychopaths should be barred from CEO positions and high political offices.   Most CEOs and politicians are probably psychopaths.   Who is a psychopath should be public knowledge.


The Tea Party is the creation of Koch Oil Company.   ["Koch" is pronounced "Coke."] The Koch brothers, David H. and Charles are worth $21.5 Billion EACH.   5 years ago they set up a front-creating organization called Americans for Prosperity [AFP].   They hired a political operative named Tim Phillips to generate fake grassroots political movements.   Fake grassroots political movements are called "Astroturf."   The tea party is completely under the control of the Koch brothers.   They also set up a number of other astroturf groups to work against the working people while pretending to be or represent working people.


If you joined the Tea Party thinking that the Tea Party was going to help you get even with the billionaires, you have been duped.   So far, the fossil fuel industry has spent about half a Billion dollars on false advertising and lobbying to fool you.   Since they have hired the best advertising firms and psychologists, you needn't feel bad.   


But Taki Oldham infiltrated an AFP meeting with a concealed camera.   The movie is on Youtube.   It shows David Koch in charge of the AFP meeting where they talk about how well the Tea Party is working in carrying out the agenda of the billionaires and frustrating ordinary Americans.   They got you to vote against yourself.   They also set up astroturf groups to tell you lies about Global Warming, Global Warming legislation [energy "tax"], medical insurance legislation, union votes, oil drilling, the stimulus plan, etc.   The video is at:

http://climateprogress.org/2010/10/14/video-proof-david-koch-the-polluting-billionaire-pulls-the-strings-of-the-tea-party-extremists/

and at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JjQxPJOAfg&feature=player_embedded



datdude 
07/28/11

Comments:
Thanks for the read!  This research really helps my understanding of the union between the religious/ethnocentric(collective - us vs them) right wing and the libertarian/business(individualistic - I, me, mine) right.  On the surface these two types of people  are usually diametrically opposed to each other.  After reading your book I now know that  they come together in a symbiotic relationship. 

The individualistic authoritarians, usually the leaders, have a mass of compatriots they can leverage to achieve their personal ambitions.  The other group of authoritarians get to have their "strong" leader who not only validate their narrow worldview, but will fight to spread it and destroy those opposed to it, because it suits their own interest.  The conquistador and the friar.  One gets gold, the other gets followers.

A great example of this dynamic at play is the movie THERE WILL BE BLOOD. It's a story about the allegiance of a ruthless oil tycoon and a young religious minister.  The tycoon's strive for power, for winning, allows the minister to build a large following and community.  In return, the tycoon, gains access to oil rich land and human labor.

For those interested in more enlightenment on why people think the way they do, I would look into the work of Dr. Don Beck or Claire W. Graves.  The research revolves around how various ways for thinking - (us vs them, winners and  losers, fight the power, etc.) develop and evolve in individuals and societies.. 


Palin Power 
07/27/11

Comments:
Bob, when Palin inevitably becomes our next and greatest President of all times, she will completely debunk, discredit and disprove all the work you have created. She will prove without the shadow of a doubt that you are completely wrong.  All the work you created in trying to blast and slander true Americans as Right-Wing submissive followers of authority is complete nonsense and wrong. Palin is always right about everything and you are completely wrong.  All of your writings are completely sacrilegious!


Joseph Waters 
07/20/11

Comments:

In Reply to Veronica:

I also see the political spectrum as more circular than linear....once you go so far left you come back around to the right.

This is a silly, tired, old cliché that gets repeated a lot; I guess that's why it's a cliché. It's not based on any serious analysis. Is there such a thing as too much freedom? Too much Democracy? Stalin, for example, was no Leftist. I don't care what he claimed. I could say that I'm the King of Siam or Napoleon reborn, but it doesn't make it so. As the eminent French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre noted in his theory of Existentialism, basically you are what you do. Despite what one claims, if one is engaged in brutal, anti-democratic behavior that is a mockery of true Socialism, then that person cannot be a Socialist, period. The above pithy phrase; however, is useful to those from the affluent classes to denigrate any truly egalitarian movement.

yet I strongly endorse social safety nets

Why? How about we go a bit further and take away the shame? Let's advocate and work toward total worker emancipation; i.e., worker self-management, democracy on and off the job, worker-run cooperatives with absolutely no hierarchies. Not in favor of this? As I've noted before on this very site, liberal is not the same as Left; it is centrist at best and, in fact, I consider it to be a center-right / moderately conservative political ideology.

Don't believe that Socialism can work? Albert Einstein thought so. He outlined his thoughts in his essay, “Why Socialism?” Although it was written over 60 years ago, it is more relevant today than ever. Find it here:

http://prolecenter.wordpress.com/2011/05/12/why-socialism-by-albert-einstein-part-1/


In Reply to Dave:

Like your example of extreme PETA members, I have read about similar types who were extremist environmentalists, who burned down ski lodges or tried to blow up oil derricks, etc., without regard for loss of life. I see the exact same type of personality as those who burn abortion clinics or kill doctors: basically sociopathic types who are attracted to violence and extreme views--of any kind.

As someone here said, “I think it's going to be a long, long time before reason alone can bridge the gulf between Them & Us.” Are you sure the “extremist” environmentalists had absolutely no regard for human life? I haven't heard of any fatalities as a result of any of these actions, but then again, I don't follow this issue very closely. Furthermore, unless you think anthropomorphic climate change is a hoax, then in a few short decades the human race could be facing extinction or failing that, a massive catastrophe. What's more extreme? Fully participating in the rush toward oblivion for the entire species (and many others) or using small-scale violence, in contrast, to stop it? Malcolm X said, “by any means necessary”, and he was right. Even JFK, far from a radical, said, “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”

Get with the program! The more people who join this revolutionary movement, the less violent it will have to be. No one would be more delighted than me, to see this happen without bloodshed.

Robert Pare has done great work in identifying a higher percentage of sociopaths in the upper echelons of business than in the rest of the population

Shocking revelation! Leftists have been saying this for almost 200 years.







Simon Holden Email
07/14/11

Comments:
Bob,
Thanks for making your book available like this. I'm very much looking forward to reading it. For years I've been convinced from the empirical evidence that there are two types of human beings - those who are motivated by a sense of common purpose and justice, and those who seem sociopathic and only able to appreciate their own needs and desires. My sense is that your research will help me understand the basis of these distinctions and my hope is that it will suggest pathways to countering those whose motivations are detrimental to the dream for a better and more sustainable world.

Best wishes,

Simon Holden


Matthew Email
07/07/11

Comments:
As an interesting thought -  I wonder about the effect of social networking on high RWA scoring individuals.  It would seem that based on the uprisings and protests that are occurring in the middle east that authoritarian followers will change their behavior once the dominos start to topple.  In Egypt, it was one individual that protested by setting himself on fire...social networking allowed the word to be spread and in a short time a lot of individuals jumped on the protest bandwagon.  Social networking was the medium that allowed for the breakdown of the authoritarian follower behavior patterns.  Protesting became the new way of being socially accepted.  Not encouraging to see that it took 40 years under the rule of an oppressive dictator for the behavior pattern to change...but as we saw, once it did change the results were widespread and meaningful.
If anyone is interested in seeing a documentary that reproduces Milgram's experiments in today's modern society...check out "Jeu de la mort".  It's in French but has subtitles.  The documentary reinforces pretty much everything stated in The Authoritarians.


Matthew Gaudry Email
07/07/11

Comments:
What a great explanation of authoritarian behavior.  Truly an enlightening experience and I couldn't stop reading (read it in one day).


MIchael R 
06/28/11

Comments:
Thank you so much for this research/book.
I tried reading your "Specter" book, this one is much more Noob-friendly!
What used to perplex me, I can now wrap my brain around (well, at least partially)! That doesn't solve the country's dilemma, but understanding RWAs provides a foundation on which to build, even if they won't admit it to themselves.

Thanks for offering the print-on-demand option, so much easier to read, and more tangible too!


michael elvin Email
06/24/11

Comments:

Dave and Veronica:

Good idea torrent you have going on. I would offer, though, that Bob's book is mostly about RWA followers, not their leaders. In any group of people there are going to be a handful of intelligent, manipulative sociopaths. But as Bob says, their influence remains small if they don't attract the attention of a huge herd of RWA followers. And in this context, Hitler and Stalin have more on common with the charismatic preacher who starts a megachurch-- or with a dynamic party whip in the US Congress.

There's another really good book about such people: David R Simon's 'Elite Deviance'. The core concept is that as power and influence concentrate, a person can find himself to be literally "above the law". In fact he may be the guy who writes the law. And human nature indicates that he's that much less attentive to personally being subject to the law. These people commonly run untrammeled until some egregious incident brings them low. I recall a senator from one of the Dakotas who habitually drove around town and state at 90-100 mph. For years, he'd never get a ticket. He was too important for such trifles. Then he broadsided someone one night at a four-way stop. And he finally fell into the clutches of the law.

The milieu at the upper levels of society is such that the culture encourages elite deviance. Currently it's easy to see on Wall Street, where people suck billions of dollars out of the street-level economy, leaving that much less for the rest of us to share. Remorse? They don't even have any understanding that this might be seen as a problem. The "little people" for them are an abstraction, invisible. Everyone they know, everyone who matters, is rich. And all worship market forces that are amoral in their action, but that favor those who already have a handsome head start in life. It's the natural order of things that they use the world as their resource base.

So they cut corners, because they can. And they apply double standards to themselves and to those little people, because they can. Society is complicit in this. Even a jury consisting of blue collar, low to middle income people will allow far greater benefit of the doubt to a rich defendant than they might to a minority or other humble person. So that above a certain level, the rich are hardly ever found guilty. And below, in the depths, almost all are considered halfway to being guilty as a matter of birth.

Interesting that most middle income or even moderately poor people are scrupulously honest in their dealings. They want to belong to a society of honest people. Below that level, the desperately poor abandon honesty as being a failed strategy. And above, at society's upper reaches, a different set of rules applies. Whatever works keeps you in the game. Hesitate, and you fall from grace. The other wolves eat you and take your place.


Dave Email
06/21/11

Comments:
Veronica, I don't know about a distribution of RWAs across the political spectrum other than what Bob has identified, but here's what I have observed: Hitler and Stalin were on diametrically opposed political sides: fascism vs. communism, yet both were standing in the same place as genocidal tyrants.

Like your example of extreme PETA members, I have read about similar types who were extremist environmentalists, who burned down ski lodges or tried to blow up oil derricks, etc., without regard for loss of life. I see the exact same type of personality as those who burn abortion clinics or kill doctors: basically sociopathic types who are attracted to violence and extreme views--of any kind. There have been similar types in many social and political movements of various types, from the early union movement to civil rights to the more recent right wing movements. I have concluded that we have to separate personality from worldview to some degree, though statistically there appear to be correlations.

More specifically, I think there is a distinction to be made between sociopathic personality types and RWAs. Even though RWAs are prone to more violence in promoting their worldview, someone who is sociopathic enough to follow through more readily is a different animal, I believe. They are drawn to whichever current social or political movement has the most propensity for violence and manipulation for power.

As for right wing leaders, however, I believe there are fewer distinctions with sociopaths (and narcissists). Robert Pare has done great work in identifying a higher percentage of sociopaths in the upper echelons of business than in the rest of the population (including a type he calls "subcriminal sociopaths"). Bernie Madoff comes to mind as a good example. Bob's work seems to support this, or that question has been posed here already.


Veronica 
06/21/11

Comments:
I've been thinking of examples of liberal RWA and perhaps people who join more militant organizations are a good place to start. What comes to mind are people in PETA because of their group cohesion, aggressive style, and lack of tolerance for those who even respectfully disagree with their more restrictive pov, such as wearing leather, or that humans who are omnivores should not even have eggs, milk, etc. I think they have a strong and focused mission that would appeal to the needs of the RWA personality.
I agree it is unlikely they would show up on the current scale, so perhaps it would be better to segregate the two diverse populations and have a test designed with questions targeted to ideologically left RWA. The alternative is a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water. I think it would be beneficial to explore it further because it would be more balanced to look at both ends of the spectrum.
I also see the political spectrum as more circular than linear....once you go so far left you come back around to the right. Further, there are many aspects to political povs: issues include social issues like crime and punishment/rehabilitation, healthcare, safety nets, public spaces and freedoms, age/race/gender, and education; international policies; military might; government organization; and so on....
I am very liberal, yet I have a hard time finding a shred of mercy for those who harm children. I believe in fiscal responsibility, yet I strongly endorse social safety nets. People can have a mish mash of povs. The difference lies in whether one wishes to make everyone follow ones own ethical, moral belief system and the behaviors that are deemed okay....it is how upset one feels by people who are different, or have different beliefs and behaviors. Does it make one feel as if he or she is personally threatened?


Veronica 
06/21/11

Comments:
Has anyone seen studies of how this translates in other cultures? (non western, non Muslim).


michael elvin Email
06/21/11

Comments:

David, I'm reading your June 14 comment (regarding the problems free thinkers and authoritarian followers currently have in sharing a nation in common) that "Communication will be key to healing this divide".

I despair of this ever being the case. I've made a lengthy study (over the past five or six years now) of this issue by frequently joining into the discussion on two well attended RWA forums: the now-defunct TCSDaily and the currently active Mises.org (from which, unfortunately, I have been banned).

In these forums I've tried to interject reasonable fact-based counterarguments into discussions that mostly consist of dogmatists agreeing with one another. And I've persisted at some length to get someone, anyone, to agree with very obvious, demonstrable realities. To no avail. I'm met with increasing rigidity. If I persist, it becomes open hostility.

I don't think it's my manner. I don't suffer fools gladly, it's true. But I try to be unfailingly polite and to always address the other person's comments respectfully. And with these people I hit a brick wall, virtually every time. (There are, it's true, a small number of intellectual liberals even on these sites, people who consider reasonable argument for the moment, but who still end up believing what they believe. But such people are rarely encountered.)

I did gain one piece of insight, however. The arguments being offered at Mises (a site full of seeming economic sophisticates) often depended on the distinction between deductive and inductive reasoning... with the approach being offered that deductive reasoning (based purely on the Truth of the foundational constructs and the soundness of the logic) was in every way superior to inductive reasoning, with its sloppy inference from observable facts. So I was derided for bringing up what they considered to be flimsy fact-based arguments... which they most commonly parried with quotations, standing unsupported by observation, from their pantheon of Respected Authorities.

That is, they assume all their axioms to be correct, and consequently every conclusion that follows from these axioms must necessarily also be correct. Ergo no observation from nature can be correct if it conflicts with these eternal truths, accepted as handed down from on high. Reality is, in such cases, mistaken. It's kind of a hard position to dismantle.

It's very like the arguments offered by those whose thinking is religion-based (or, for that matter, the arguments proferred by orthodox Marxists). For these people, observed data doesn't stand a chance when confronted with merciless logic based on a priori beliefs.

I think it's going to be a long, long time before reason alone can bridge the gulf between Them & Us. Just my experience.

(BTW, Webmaster, I'm having a problem with your formatting. Every line in the comments section runs about three feet long. My screen is only about 13" wide. So I'm having to do quite a lot of scrolling sideways, to read the comments. Any suggestions?)


Veronica Email
06/20/11

Comments:
Response to DAJ:
The problem with the finding on the enlarged amygdala is that there is no comparison over time. Brain plasticity could cause the amygdala to get larger as the person becomes attuned to events that cause him or her fear. There is no evidence of causality. Which came first? The fearfulness or the enlargement? Attention to a particular thing causes changes to occur in the brain, then the changes reinforce the attention so it could be a cycle of change over time. Longitudinal studies using MRI could clear this up.


Veronica Email
06/20/11

Comments:
A repines to Murray Duffin:
Your remark about fear in the RWA is an interesting observation, but as an extremely low scorer who believes climate change is occurring, I can say I don't feel fear, but see it as a call to action. RWA's, in my experience, simply refuse to entertain the idea at all. It does not fit the end of the world scenario for Christians or Muslims, and here in the US, the RWA's are having their ideas molded by their leaders who are supported by corporations that don't want to have to put out money for changing SOP. The RWA's are terrified of terrorism, of Muslims, of social progressives, of anyone from an out group, and are having those fears fed by their favorite news programs while climate change is poo-pooed as false science, false crisis generated by liberals. The amazing thing is that when someone defects from their side of an issue, they either ignore it with the claim that the person was somehow forced to do it, or that the person was planted by the liberals to begin with. This occurred with the radio host who was so supportive of water boarding until he did a show where he allowed himself to undergo the procedure. The RWA's dropped him like a hot potato claiming it was all a liberal set up. Once an idea is planted, it is entrenched and nearly impossible to change. They will not research for themselves...they accept as truth everything a trusted source tells them.
As to genetics, I think it is less powerful than experience. My parents are the complete opposite of me...in fact, I've wondered if I am adopted! However, that said, I do think there could be alterations to DNA that occur through experience of the parents, such as the changes that occur in following generations after one generation experiences trauma, that affect hormone production and influences behavior.
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